Native Two-Spirit: Historical & Current Perspective

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In this episode, Lenny shares his story of enduring a childhood of parental abuse, foster care and sexual assault.  He relates how what could have destroyed him became his passion and life’s work, as a therapist, consultant and public speaker focusing on the unique issues of the Native LGBTQ community. 

Presenter Bio:
Lenny Hayes, MA, is a citizen of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate of the northeast corner of South Dakota. Lenny is owner and operator of Tate Topa Consulting, LLC and currently in private practice specializing in Marriage Family Therapy.  He has extensive training in mental and chemical health issues that impact the Two-Spirit/Native LGBTQ and Native community.  Lenny has traveled nationally and locally training and presenting on the issues that impact both the Two-Spirit/Native LGBTQ individual and community. These issues include the Impact of Historical and Intergenerational Trauma on this population, violence of all forms, child welfare issues, and the Impact of Sexual Violence on Men and Boys which is a topic that is rarely discussed. Lenny is the former Missing and Murdered Two-Spirit Project Assistant for Sovereign Bodies Institute. Lenny is also a 2020 graduate of the Human Trafficking Leadership Academy Cohort 5.

Lenny is former Chairman of the Board of the MN Two-Spirit Society.  As Chairman he assisted Native organizations in developing policies in the protection, safety, and non-discrimination of Two-Spirit/Native LGBTQ people in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.  Lenny is a Board member of StrongHearts Native Helpline, Board member of Wac’ ang’a (Sweet Grass) Inc. Victim Services,  Board Member to the First Nations Repatriation Institute,  Advisory Committee Member with Capacity Building Center for Tribes, LGBTQ Advisory Co-Chair Council Member for the Southwest Indigenous Women’s Coalition, Advisory Board Member for the National Quality Improvement Center (QIC) on Tailored Services, Placement Stability and Permanency for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Questioning, and Two-Spirit Children and Youth in Foster Care,  Committee Member for ACE-DV Leadership Forum with the National Resource Center for Domestic Violence. and a former Council Member for the MN HIV/AIDS Prevention and Care Council, and a former Two-Spirit/Native LGBTQ Advisory Committee Member for the Center for Native American Youth, Washington, D.C.  Lenny was selected to be a recipient of the 2018 Bonnie Heavy Runner Advocacy Award at the 16th National Indian Nations Conference “Justice for Victims of Crime.” 

Interviewer Bio:
Blaze Bell is a lifelong Alaskan, Speaker, Singer, and Transformational Coach, who has turned her pain into her purpose. She is on a mission to help others heal, in the ways that she has, from trauma and addiction. Blaze has a popular podcast highlighting healing tools and a new video series interviewing leaders in the healing industry. She is the Board President of Victims for Justice and also frequently works with Standing Together Against Rape (STAR), a rape crisis intervention service in Anchorage, Alaska. As a certified holistic health coach and award-winning singer, Blaze combines her unique skill set to bring the world healing through mindfulness, health, music, and joy.

This project was supported by Grant No.2019-SA-AX-K001 awarded by the Office on Violence Against Women, U.S. Department of Justice. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this presentation are those of the author(

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello. And welcome to today's episode. This podcast is brought to you by IAFN'S, ISAAC project funded by the Office on Violence Against Women. The International Association of Forensic Nurses is the recognized authority on forensic nursing, promoting universal access to care for patients impacted by violence and trauma. The Indigenous Sexual Assault and Abuse Clearinghouse project has a mission to offer technical assistance, training and education to providers serving sexual assault survivors in tribal communities. I am your host, Blaze Bell, lifelong Alaskan dedicated to helping fellow survivors heal from trauma today's guest is line hate is line is the founder and owner of Tate Topa Consulting. Their focus is not only on American Indian historical and intergenerational trauma, but other various types of trauma that affect the two spirit native LGBTQ community and the general population as a whole learn more at tatetopa.com. In this episode, Lenny opens up about his traumatic past and the ways that he moved through that abuse to become the inspirational healer he is today. He speaks from both the perspective of a survivor and also as a mental health professional, this episode is full of valuable insights. So let's dive in.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Hello, everyone. I am here today with Lenny Hayes, the amazing advocate and survivor, and such an advocate for two spirits and the LGBTQ native community, which I think is really, really incredible. And I've heard you share stories of your life and your trauma, and you've really turned your pain into your purpose and you are just this, this incredible human being. And so I thank you so much for joining me today to share, to share with this group. So thank you.

Speaker 3: 1:57

Thank you for

Speaker 2: 1:58

Inviting me. Yeah, of course. So podcast is geared somewhat towards service providers. This is with the international association of forensic nurses and, you know, some, uh, police and child welfare, you know, all the kind of different providers that we see throughout our process of trauma. And we really want this to be a place too, where they can come and hear some stories about experiences we've each had and how that's been. And so I was hoping that you could share, I know, uh, I've heard from your story, you know, quite a bit of abuse in childhood, and then through your teenage years, if you wouldn't mind sharing, you know, maybe about the child welfare and some of the experiences you had with service providers and how maybe that experience could have been different for you, um, or if you think it was meant to be the way it was. All right.

Speaker 3: 3:00

Um, well, first of all, um, I have been, or had been part of the foster care system from the age of six, um, even probably even younger. Um, and what, and the stories that I remember was, um, often going to my grandmother's on the weekend, um, being able to see my father, um, but really during that experience, I mean, there was a lot of dysfunction in my family. I mean, like I came from a, a very dysfunctional home where, um, my father was never, um, my mother was, uh, what I, what I would call her as being my main perpetrator as a child. Um, she would physically, emotionally, um, and mentally abuse me. Um, and then on top of that, you know, with all those other abuses that I was experiencing with her, I was also experiencing being sexually abused by an older brother and then often was, uh, sexually abused by, uh, other relatives within the home. Um, and so, um, I became a board of the court at the age of 10, um, which was, which was a tough thing because I remember going into court with my social worker. And, um, what had happened was when the judge said that my mother's per parental rights were taken away, um, I didn't understand what that meant. And so I looked at my social worker and my social worker said to me, um, when I asked her, you know, what does that mean? And she says, well, what I remember her saying to me was, well, legally, she's no longer your mother and she can't make decisions for you. Um, so with that, I remember just being really confused. Um, and that's where being in the foster care system really, um, sort of, um, took its took its journey I guess is how I see it. Um, but before that, I mean, um, you know, going back and forth to my grandmother's between, you know, under the age of 10, um, and being able to spend time with my grandmother, um, and because of my trauma and everything that I experienced today, I can remember very little of my childhood. Um, and what I remember the good things is what I really hold onto. And like one of the things talk about that's such a powerful thing for me is that, um, that I really cherish and hold onto is that I love the smell of bacon. Um, and the reason why I love the smell of bacon is because when, when I and my two sisters were able to go and spend a weekend with my grandmother, my grandmother on Saturday mornings would make this huge breakfast. Um, and I remember waking up and I would smell the bacon and then I would walk to the kitchen and I would peek around the corner and I would see her, um, cooking Fri bread, um, cooking, eggs, fried potatoes bacon. And so every ti, and then one thing that I really, really hold onto also is that while she was cooking, she would often be whistling. And so even today when I'm cooking, um, if I'm cooking bacon or whatever, I will automatically just start to whistle in my own mind, because that was such a powerful memory of, for me. And it was such a loving and caring memory that I just really, really hold onto to. Um, and then when I became a award at the court at the age of 10, um, the first place that I went to, I was forced to go to boarding school. Um, and my experience in boarding school, wasn't, um, wasn't a very good experience. Um, I wasn't treated badly by the people who worked at the boarding school. Um, what had happened was I was gained great by three older boys. Um, and so during my experience that year that I was in boarding school, um, there was several times where I would run away and I could still see memories of walking down the road with my older sister, because there was, there was a time where my older sister ran away with me and I remember a white van stopping and picking us up and taking us back to the school. Um, so my experience after that, um, after leaving boarding school was, I was forced to go to a children's home, which was the Catholic children's home, um, which was on our reservation. One of the said, I talk about my experience being in foster care was that I was never outside of my tribal community. I was within my tribal community, but I was in, in many different spaces, um, including, you know, um, a children's home, a detention center, multiple foster care, uh, foster. Um, I was also even in jail as a young child because I, I acted out, I acted out in many, many different ways because no one really, um, no one really listened to me. Um, no one really understood how to help me, especially with my identity, you know, and one of the things that I've, um, my ex experience in talking to my, um, um, social worker who, who I still have contact with, even after, you know, I'm 52 years old, um, after 40 years, I still have contact with her. Um, and we had a deep conversation one time about, um, my experience in the foster care system. And one of the things that I was able to say to her after my own healing and sort of understanding the things that I went through, uh, through the foster care system, I basically said to her, um, the system failed me. You all failed me. And she said, I agree, Lenny, I agree that we did fail you because often what they did was they put me back into spaces that were still where I was still experiencing violence. Um, one of the things that I, uh, often tell me people is that, you know, as an adult and learning about the two spirit identity and who I am, um, today in understanding and really embracing who I am at that age, no one told me no one taught me about what it was to be a young gay boy. Um,<affirmative> I was, you know, ostracized. I was ridiculed. I was bullied, um, throughout my teenage years and all, a lot of my young years. Um, and there's things that I don't remember about my childhood, but I will often talk with classmates who I've just sort of, um, became con in contact with. And some of the things that they would say to me is like, I remember when you used to play with us, you were such a, a good child. You loved to play with us. We jump ropes. You, you played well with the girls, but the sad part about it is those things I don't remember. Um, and often when they tell me those things, um, I sometimes will feel sad because to them, those are really happy, you know, memories. And I can't remember'em, so I feel sad about that, but I also, you know, being a mental health provider, I could really understand, um, why I don't remember those things, but it still makes me sad.<affirmative> um, you know, one of the things that happened to me during my experience in being in the foster care system, um, I was forced to see a psychologist. Um, and the psychologist was more concerned about trying to change my identity as a young gay boy, rather than trying to help me to work through my trauma. Um, I remember many conversations where, um, my identity came up and I didn't understand nobody taught me. And, and if you think about it, it's like the late seventies, early eighties, and there wasn't a lot of conversations about, um, young children who identified, um, you know, one of the things that I always say to people too, is that, um, I don't have a coming out story, um, because I believe that I came out in a rainbow dress, um, because I remember at a very young age, I mean, very young about who I was. Um, but nobody helped me to understand it. Um, instead, you know, I became a victim of, of many forms of abuse. Um, the stories that I tell, you know, you know, and I don't, I don't look at my BI I don't hate my biological mother. That's one of the things that I tell people. I don't hate her. Um, I haven't talked to my biological mother for 26 years, um, by choice. And that was something that I had to work through in, um, in my own journey of therapy, which was 10 years of extensive therapy to get through a lot of the trauma that I experienced. Um, and it was a lot of hard work and there was a lot of two steps forward and one step back, you know? And so, um, one of the things that I say about my biological mother is that my mother gave birth to me. And I love her for that, because if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be here. And that's the only things that she taught me. Otherwise, she taught me bad things. She taught me how to hurt people. Um, she taught me how to lash out at people. Um, she did a lot of, you know, those negative ne taught me negative B behaviors. Um, so again, you know, when I talk about my biological mother, I don't do it in a way that I'm being hateful towards her, but also knowing that there's somebody out there who may have ex who may have experienced the same thing that I went through, and maybe struggling with wanting to sort of like dis connect from maybe an, a parent that maybe abuse them. Um, and so the reason why I tell my stories is sort of to give permission for other people to tell their stories. Cause it's not my it's, I don't want people to feel sorry for me. Um, because feeling sorry for me is not gonna be helpful towards me. Um, and because of my own healing that has brought me, um, to the point where I'm just very passionate about my work and about helping others heal, um, especially native American people. Cause you know, um, we learn so much about, um, our situations and why things, things have happened to us and, you know, just really understanding that historical and intergenerational trauma piece because, um, if I wasn't in, in, in a healthy state of mind, um, I would be angry all the time. I would be lashing out at people. Um, and just understanding that, you know, my parents and my grand came from a place of trauma also. Um, I know that my mother and father were abused by their parents. Um, I know that my grandparents were abused also and they were a part of the boarding school era. Um, along with my mother, my mother was, um, was, was in the boarding school and I'm not too sure about my father. Um, I've never heard stories of it. Um, but I know that my grandparents were a part of the, the boarding school era. So just really understanding a lot of that. Um, it's hard because often I've, I've been, had people ask me, like, how can you not hate the people who hurt you? Um, my que my answer to that is that, um, my healing experience is not about them. It's about me. Um, my forgiveness towards them is about me. It's not about them, um, because if I choose to hold onto those pieces, then I'm not gonna be the best that I can be in helping others heal. Um, you know, I still see and hear about my biological mother even today. Um, um, but I have the tools to help myself when I experience those things and become unregulated. Um, I, I do a lot of good things to take care of myself. One of the things that, um, that is a very powerful tool for me, um, today, even as I'm mental health provider. And I also share this with the people that I work with. Um, I also do work in regards to sexual violence against men and boys. Um, I've been doing this work for about three, four years now, maybe longer, maybe four or five years. Um, what I know is that I believe that I'm the only native person traveling across the country into tribal communities and talking about the topic of sexual violence against men and boys. Um, and, um, I was presenting in Arizona, uh, in a tribal community and after I was done presenting, um, there was an elder who approached me. And one of the things she said to me was, um, can I give you some advice? And I said, sure. She said, I really want to thank you for all the work that you're doing, because this is something that we don't talk about in our tribal communities. And we know that our tribal communities are really impacted by sexual violence against men and boys. And she said, you know, throughout your presentation, you kept using the word trigger. And she said, um, trigger is a very powerful, negative word. And she said, I want you to say it. So I said it, I said trigger. She said, remember she said, we as Indian people, she said, believe that every thing has a spirit, the rocks, the trees, the grass, um, the wind, they're all spirits. And she said, even our own emotions and feelings are spirits. So she said, um, instead of using the word trigger, I want you to start using the word reminder. And then the conversation ended, you know, with that, you know, with the hug and just thanking her for a teaching after I processed it, it really made a lot of sense in regards to he healing as Indian people. You know, I always say the Western way of healing has its purpose, but also we have our own cultural and spiritual ways of healing. Um, and so, you know, I, I'm very real when I talk to people about like, you know, what it means to be healing because I could be watching a TV show or I could be reading a book that has maybe talking about violence, um, or talking about maybe a child experiencing violence. And often, sometimes I become really unregulated when I see, or if I read something like that. So in order for me to take care of myself, what I will often say to myself is in, in, in talking about that feeling, maybe I'm feeling sadness, maybe I'm feeling loneliness, maybe I'm feeling confusion or anger, um, or frustration. One of the things that I will say to myself or say to what I'm experiencing is I see you, I feel you, and now you can go away knowing that that spirit is always gonna come back and visit, but looking at in a cultural and spiritual aspect, um, that's a spirit that's coming to visit. So again, that's why I always say that our Western way of healing has its purpose, but I also believe that it keeps us stuck because those words are really powerful. Like the, the, like the word, um, uh, trigger. That's a very powerful, negative word. Our Western way of healing is based on diagnosing people. Now, our, I already know what I, I experienced. I experienced, um, anxiety, depression, um, PTSD. Um, I had a suicide attempt. All of those are part of that Western Western language. Right. Um, and so we know that before our people had a form of, um, our own psychology, how we viewed things, how we took care of people, like I've heard many stories of how we took care of people who had mental health issues before colonization. I've heard stories of how we viewed children who were, um, who are mentally challenged, um, or have, uh, you know, mental development issues where our people considered them to be sacred. And we took care of them, you know, and a, and a lot of times today, you know, we see a lot of our like parents or whatever, or caregivers will often put these children in group homes because that's what they think that they need. And so, you know, and in reality, you know, before colonization, we viewed those things, those, those two children are people as being sacred and we took care of them. Um, so again, I just, I be, you know, um, and also too, I mean, I've worked with elders within the community, and there's been many times where elders have said to me, Lenny, please don't diagnose me, just listen to me.<affirmative>. And so there were times that when I would work with them, instead of using as an example, like talking about, uh, codependency, what I know of is that codependency is an issue that really impacts our Indian people. Um, and so when working with this particular, um, elder who, well, I've learned a lot from even just working with her, you know, learning how to talk to her without using that language. And so often it would always be like storytelling to get her to understand like her own behavior and how she could change her own behavior or whatever. Um, and a lot of times, a lot of our, um, the elders that I work with would get it, you know, they, then they would talk about it. Um, but oftentimes they just didn't wanna hear that language. Um, you know, I know I'm jumping around. Um,

Speaker 2: 22:25

Well, do you mind if we pause for a minute? Sure. I have a all kinds of notes.<laugh> we don't have to go back to every one of'em, but just thank you for sharing all of that, first of all, and thank you so much for having the courage and making the choice to share your story. And I know how challenging that is, and that's a big part of my mission as well. Um, as a sexual assault survivor, I know I'm here to share that and be a voice for a lot of other survivors, and it's super important to me. And it never feels comfortable. You know, even, even when I've said the story a hundred times, it still feels uncomfortable, but I know that every time I share and every time you share, you're letting someone else know that they're not alone. And I think that's huge and you're giving them permission, like you said, to share their story. And I don't think people need to necessarily share like us to hundreds of people, but even if they can just share a secret, that's been held within them to one person they trust that's gonna free them so much, you know? So just thank you for, for choosing to do that. I think that's really powerful. And, uh, you know, when you're talking about your mother and the idea of it reminded me of, um, something I heard from a speaker one time where he was saying, if you're gonna blame someone for all your problems, you also have to thank them. And I felt like, you know, and that was, uh, kind of hard to think about, but at the same time, you know, I just kept processing that. I thought, wow, you know, there is this person in my world who I've blamed for so many things. Yet. I also, because of the trauma I went through with them, I have this massive amount of empathy I never had before. And it's put me on the trajectory I'm on helping so many people that I don't know, I would ever have thought about even, you know, so not that I want us to experience these things and I surely don't want other people to, but I, I appreciate what you have to say about where you're at with your mom and also having your own boundary that I can forgive this person. But that doesn't mean I, I need to be involved with them. I think that's, that's beautiful too. So I wanted to ask, uh, and this is sort of just for me, but I know since I'm wondering, and you've experienced it, there will be people listening that also want to know, you talked quite a bit about not remembering things from your childhood. And I have a lot of that as well. And just yesterday, I got a call from my dad. He's like, remember when we went to this city, we thought about living here, yada, yada. And he's going into all these details. Apparently we toured a whole school. I have no memory of it. And I have so many gaps like that. And I, I feel what you're talking about, where I felt sad hearing that I felt embarrassed, you know, I thought, should I lie and say like, oh yeah, ha I remember when I have just have absolutely of it. You know? And so as a mental health professional, you know, why, why is that? What, where do those big gaps come from? Cause I know it's not just you and me. Um, can you explain that a little bit for other people that experience that mm-hmm

Speaker 3: 25:42

<affirmative> um, so I'm gonna use myself as an example, um, because I don't wanna speak for everyone else and just for my own experience and understanding. Um, I remember many times that even my two older sisters, we would be having conversations and often, sometimes we would be talking about the trauma that we experience and my sisters would say to me, well, do you remember when, um, this happened? Um, and sometimes I wouldn't even remember it. Um, and I remember when I was going through my, uh, my healing journey through a therapist, um, one of the things that I would often do when I would go into a session is that become so frustrated. Like why can't I remember this stuff? And, um, it wasn't until she said to me, she said, Lenny, um, why would you wanna remember that stuff? She said your brain was protecting you. And I guess I really didn't understand that, um, until I went to school to be a therapist and from my understanding of my own experience, you know, I had experienced so much trauma from physical to, to mentally emotional and sexual abuse. That what happened was I also disassociated, um, I could remember telling people that, you know, even telling my own therapist, there were many times that I would look down and I could see myself from the ceiling looking down and at something that I may have been experiencing, like the sexual abuse or the physical abuse, um, I could see myself and then just understanding that disassociation piece also. Um, what I know of is that when an individual experiences that much trauma often, what happens is the brain shuts down and it's, and it protects you, right? But also from the experience of the trauma, even your development stops. Um, so that's why as part of my own work as a mental and chemical health provider, and specifically just working with Indian people, one of the things that I integrate into the work that I do is also helping that individual to heal the child within, um, because that was a huge piece for me in my journey of healing. Um, because one of the things that I know of is my child, um, who was impacted by so much violence is also also needs, uh, the, the chance to heal. Um, many times when we're in our native families, we often hear the adults around us say stop acting like a child. Um, when really, you know, when I work with Indian people and, and explaining to them is that, you know, when we come from a very dysfunctional home, um, often a child, for instance, I could tell you many times that I took care of the adults around me. I also took care of my sibling, so I never had the opportunity to be a child. Um, and so as part of my, the last part of my healing was really important because that's where I sort of, uh, took this, this, um, this boy, my boy. Um, and one of the things that an elder, she's saying a ceremonial song over me, and when she was done, one of the things she said to me is that I want you to take your little boy's hand down. So she had me close my eyes and she said it was some guided imagery. Um, and so she said, I want you to take his hand. And she said, I want you to thank him for taking care of you. She said, even though that little boy taught you bad things, but he also taught you how to survive. And she said, now it's your time to take care of him. So even today, as an adult, I will often find myself acting very childish, but I allow myself to feel childish. And even when I'm with my partner, I will act childish and it's okay. So I have many pictures of me looking very childlike. And what I'll do is I'll, you know, if there's, if there's a sure, I'll ask my closest friends, what does this look like to you? And one of the first things they, they will say is you look happy and you look almost childlike. So then I know that that's my boy, the child within who's feeling okay. You know, I will often, um, just think about, you know, um, let me give you another, um, example, which was really, really powerful because, you know, my experience, you know, I travel across the country talking about violence and healing, um, all of that within native C and one specific time, I was very unregulated, emotionally unregulated, um, and couldn't figure out what was going on. So as part of taking care of myself, I will often do a check-in with a mental health provider. But at the same time, I will also with an elder. So I always made sure that if I had a mental health, uh, appointment right after that, I would go and see an elder. Um, so I always made sure that I did that. So, um, I went to go visit an elder and I was telling her my experience. And one of the things she said to me, she said, Lenny, how are, are you taking care of that little boy? And I was like, what do you mean? She said, you know, she said, I know that you travel all over the country, um, talking about, you know, violence, sexual violence, all of that. And she said, did you know that when you're up there standing and talking in front of people, that little boy is standing beside you, and he has his hands over his ears. She said, how are you taking care of him? Cause she said, you're talking about him. And I just went, whoa. Oh, wow. And so, um, what I did afterwards, when she told me that, um, it made me really think about why I become unregulated, why sometimes I get angry and agitated. Right. And it's not me. It's that little boy. And so one of the things that I started to do, um, especially if I'm attending these meetings that are very, um, hardcore talking about like violence and coming up with solutions and all this and that. Um, so what I did was, uh, what I still do is I carry a coloring book in Crans when I travel. And so if these meetings, or even just having these conversations or even just presenting gets to be too heavy, then I will sit there and color. And that's how I take care of my little boy. Um, because I think often, sometimes, you know, as a survivor, if we don't take care of ourselves and if we don't take care of that child within, um, that child's gonna let us know. Um, so I like to talk about that because that's, for me, you know, um, um, it's important that I do that. It's important for me to act childish at times it's important for me to jump in a pool and act like a little kid and that's okay. You know, it's okay for me to laugh hysterically like a child, because I didn't get to enjoy that stuff as a child. So that's how I take care of my little boy. Now I take care of him in a good way, um, and allow him to come out and play. Um, there's many, many different ways that I can tell you about how I acknowledge that little boy. I can go to, you know, one of, one of the things that was so exciting for me was that last year or before the pandemic, I was in San Francisco. And one of the things that I was able to do was I was able to write on a trolley. And I remember how excited and how giddy I was, um, just feeling very childlike, but I was riding on a trolley. And so one of my friends actually snapped a picture of me hanging onto the railing of the trolley with my arm and lake spread out and I'm giggling and laughing. And for me that was childlike behavior, but it was okay. So that's what I mean about like the importance for, of me allowing my child to come out and play. Cuz often, sometimes we don't allow ourselves to do that. And as being survivor, as being a survivor of the many different forms of violence, that's, uh, that's a way of healing.

Speaker 2: 35:11

Yeah. I love that. I absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing. And that's really helpful to me as well. And you know, I do a lot of this similar work and, uh, work with victims for justice here in Alaska, which is victims of crime and then, uh, star, which is our rape crisis center. And so there is a lot of tough, tough conversations, heavy things. And I feel naturally like a very lighthearted. I also in the cues of being childlike a lot, you know, and Vanessa, I was like, oh, thank you. Thank you. And what's funny is last year I found myself putting a ton of pressure on myself. Just, I don't, I don't know why just to get this and that done and be this superhero and do all the things. And, um, just, just way too hard on myself and I thought, or somebody I was working with said, well, how would you talk to your daughter or you as a child in these situations. And cuz I was doing a lot of really big healing work and then getting frustrated that it wasn't going faster and you know, frustrated when my fear would come up again and things like that. And so I ended up finding a picture of me as probably five and I made it my phone like lock screen for probably a good four or five months. And I had, I had this constant reminder throughout the day. Anytime I looked at my phone and saw little me, I would take a deep breath and think about how gentle I would be with her and how I would, I would never say go faster, do this better. You suck. You know, any of the things we might say to ourselves as adults, it would be, I'm here for you. I'm listening. Do you need a hug? You're doing a great job. I'm so proud of you. You know, and that process really helped me get out of that pressure. And uh, so I, I love what you're saying too. Just the healing that comes from play and giving yourself permission. I think that's amazing. Yeah. I love that. Okay. One more question. I know that you, a lot of your is focus on two spirit. And so I would love to hear, let's just imagine the young gay native men that maybe listening to this and are in a point of their journey where they're struggling, maybe feeling like they're not being treated right or confused, what's your message to them? What is your message to, you know, maybe ways that they can heal or the next steps or just not feeling alone? Do you have any Sage advice?

Speaker 3: 37:52

Wow. Um, so in June I was invited to port a rapid city, South Dakota to, to be a part of a youth, a native youth camp. And I was asked by my ENA, which in my language means mother, um, to come and be a part of that. And one of the things that, um, she asked me to do was just to come and sit with the young people. Um, so I said, okay. And then when I asked her<affirmative> what would you like me to talk about? And she said, you know, I thought maybe she would give me some direction or whatever. And one of the things that she said was, um, talk about anything, you know, what to talk about. And so I said, okay, so knowing little about these youth, you know, with the, the youngest being 17, um, one of the things that I said to them and knowing that some of those youth also identify, but they, they were also youth who didn't identify. And so I sat with them. And one of the things that, you know, I said to them is that if you can walk away from here today, one of the things that I want you to remember is that always remember there's, there's there somebody out there who loves you, even if it's just one person. Um, and the reason why I said that is because often when we come from a place of dysfunction, we have it in our headset. Nobody loves us. Um, especially when we come from a home where there's a lot of abuse, there's a lot of alcohol and drugs. There's not a lot of love or there's not a lot of caring, um, and basically surviving as young children. So that's what I would say. And I would also include that too, with individuals who identify we are, are born this way. We are not a bad person. And from the things that I learned and talking and doing my own research and also visiting two spirit elders, one of the things that I hold deeply onto is that I am a gift and you are a gift. You are a creation from the creator that each of our tribes individually have stories of individuals like us who identify, um, that we weren't bad, that we are considered sacred. We are considered holy. We were honored because of the roles that we played in community. Um, more importantly, what I always like to talk about too, as an example, um, I worked with 11 year old boy who came from a home that was very, very highly functional. They were culturally and spiritually connected. The mother was a social worker. The father was a lo year and this 11 year old boy came out as gender flute, but also called himself two spirit. And so I met his mother at a conference and his mother asked me if I would come and work with him because she knew that he was experiencing, um, depression and anxiety. They actually drove every week, three hours from Wisconsin to min to Minneapolis, just to, for me to work with him. One of the things that was very impacting in our conversation when I went and did the family assessment, even though he came from a very loving and caring home, he said, I'm afraid that I may not be the son that my father wants me to be. And then it was very impactful. Um, and the father responded by saying, this is your journey. I love you. And I'm here to protect you and help you. And, oh my gosh, I think that's the first time that I've ever like became teary eyed. Um, because my hope is that our natives, our native males and our families will, will, will hear that. And, um, I wish they could all be like that because that really eliminates a lot of the pain, the suffering that we, as two spirit people have to go through when we're ostracized and we're shunned from our own families, from our own communities and often have to leave in order to heal or find ways of support. Right. So, um, the reason why I like to tell that story also is just to help people to understand how, even though this young boy came from a very healthy home society, put that on him, that he was less than. So when I worked with him, one of the things that we often did a lot was we did a lot of walk and talk therapy. Um, so we would just walk and talk. And, um, one of the things that I would often do with him is that I would tell him about, or talk with him about two-spirit identity. And I would remind him that someday, you know, he may grow up to be someone who's gonna pour water in ceremony. Um, he may be a doctor. He may be a nurse. Um, he may be a lawyer. He may be a teacher. He may even be a C, but I told him that is your role in who you identify as. So you get to define that along with, you know, your connection to the creator. Um, however you wanna help the people that is our role as two spirit people. And so I really wanna stress to young people out there who are native, who are trying to figure out their identity. Um, it's okay to try to figure out your identity because one of the things I often run into too, is that a lot of parents think that when their child says one day, oh, I think I'm gonna be<affirmative> or I think I'm gay. And then the next day they say, I I'm bisexual. Then they wanna directly put them into therapy. And I always say, that's wrong to do that because there's, you have to allow them to figure out their identity. They need to figure that out. So it's okay for them to say, oh, I think I'm transgender one day and then maybe bisexual the next day. That's okay. You know, but we're always quick to wanting to put, you know, young people in therapy, um, when they're figuring out themselves, what we need to do is that we need to check our biases. We need to support these young children, because again, one of the things that I will often say in native community, um, and I'm very blunt about it is that our young people do not need to be killing themselves because of who they are.<affirmative> when we know that before colonization, our view of, of two-spirit identity, um, was powerful. It was healing. We were looked upon as being sacred and holy, um, and because of colonization that was lost. So, you know, again, just want young people to know, you know, um, always remember, even if it's just one person there's out there, there's someone out there who loves you and who supports you and who encourages you. Um, so that's what I'd like to say.

Speaker 2: 45:51

Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And thank you, Lenny, just for taking the time to share all of this with us today. I appreciate it so much. And I am honored to meet you and know about all the work you're doing all over the nation. I think it's absolutely incredible. And we'll have, um, notes with all your links, but do you mind just saying what website link is so that people can check that out?

Speaker 3: 46:18

Yes. Um, my website is located w ww.tatetopa. com and, u m, how you would pronounce that is Tate Topa. So in my language, what that means is that in means f our directions or f our wins. M m. So it's, so again, my organization is Tate Topa Consulting.

Speaker 2: 46:44

Thank you. And I've been on your website and there's so many great resources. So I highly recommend people go check that out and, uh, see everything that you're up to and the resources you've shared, not only your own talks, but, uh, the are other resources that people can, uh, check out. So Lenny thanks again. And I can't wait to talk to you again.

Speaker 3: 47:03

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 47:05

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